I guess I've got to talk about it
Did you watch last Tuesday's City Council meeting? I was there. I have to tell you that I've been dreading talking about it.
I don't like having to criticize the actions of our council members and staff. They might think otherwise but I want to assure everyone that it's not my nature and I let a lot of stuff slide without bringing it to the public's attention.
One thing I can't let slide is the eminent domain action that was unanimously approved last week. I have heard the city say that "we don't do that". And then they did it. It's shocking and depressing at the same time.
The landowner had an attorney there who indicated that they were taking the land illegally. His contention was that this was truly not a public benefit but a benefit to the developer(Griffin for Heritage Valley Parks). It sounded like there was a lot more to the situation that has been going on for years.
Does the city council have the option to authorize some negotiations with landowners(or citizens)? It looks like we're on our way to another potential lawsuit that might have been avoided. The landowner and his attorney seemed to be willing to talk.
So, what's your thoughts? Do you think it's okay to take this land(it was to provide road access for HVP east exit)?
posted by Gayle Washburn @ 7:32 PM
110 Comments
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110 Comments:
Today, construction is underway and soon there will 750 homes and an elementary school in that area. In the event of a disaster in this confined area, isn't it wise to think that more access to exits might help to save some lives? It kind of sounds like a public benefit to me.
whos idea was it to bulid there in the first place?
ribbet ribbet
I agree that the City Council has the right to utilize their power when it comes to Eminent Domain.
But only under these guidelines:
“Governments most commonly use the power of eminent domain when the acquisition of real property is necessary for the completion of PUBLIC PROJECTS such as roads, military installations, or public buildings. Some states require that before resorting to the use of eminent domain the condemning body must make an offer of purchase to the owner.”
“The right of the government to take property from a private owner for public use by virtue of the superior dominion of its sovereignty over all lands within its jurisdiction.
NOTE: The Fifth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution requires the government to compensate the owner of property taken by eminent domain, stating “nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.” State constitutions contain similar provisions requiring that the property owner receive just compensation for the property taken. “
They are not allowed to use this power for the benefit of a Private source, i.e.: Developers.
If this action is for the benefit of the Developers then, “NO!!!”
I am strongly against any injustice and misuse of Power.
So was this Land taken under Eminent Domain for a Public Project or Private Project?
Heritage Valley is a Private Project.
I am aware that our City Attorney has in the past ill advised our City Council and the Council has at times ignored the City Attorney’s good advice.
The City Council making decision at the Midnight hour also gives light to the fact that their actions may be inappropriate and self serving; i.e., Back Door Deals.
In June of 2006 President Bush (present) has signed an Executive Order. The Order reverted the change of Eminent Domain in which the Supreme Court changed in June of 2005.
I am not sure of all the details, but what I recall is that Eminent Domain was revert back to the original guidelines.
Gayle how many Lawsuits has this sitting Council incurred by their terrible decisions?
Also how many Lawsuits has incurred while Smedley and Villegas has been sitting in Office for the last 4yrs ?
Gayle one more question.
Eminent Domain for the last few years has been a very volatile subject Nation wide.
I see this going to the Calif. State Higher Courts and can go all the way to the
United States Supreme Court.
To all yes it will.
Now Gayle, can our City afford all these motions and court procedures?
I say let the city council make all the stupid mistakes it wants to. When they go broke, the city of Fillmore will be Nomore and we will revert back to the umbrella of the county.
I agree Anon 10:40, but in the end We will pay.
Prevention has always been good medicine.
conaway is doing a sweet job!
Oh GEEZ, Conaway is a HYPOCRITE TO THE BONE. For starters A Christian doesnt enagage in a smear campaign against another human being , UNLESS LDS has changed its teachings!
SMEDLEY WHERE ARE YOU? HAHAHA.
HOME WHERE YOU BELONG
Gracy, the HVP debate is over. Flood insurance nor the Supreme Court will NOT make a difference in peoples lives when disaster strikes. Put your political nonsense aside for a moment and think about the safety of the thousands of future Fillmoreons.
ummm Marco... the correct term is Fillmoron.
Marco or rather Smedley,
It is not necessary to lower your standards towards me and use insulting language.
Now with that said, I shall move on to an intelligent conversation.
The only answer for the so called "Build-Out" of Fillmore into the Santa Clara River is to,
STOP!!!
Marco you are absolutely correct, for the Safety of the Citizens of Fillmore.
What was the City Council thinking when they approved The Heritage Plans to build in the Riverbed?
Thousands of lives will be at stake when the River swells up.
The only answer for all to be safe is to “STOP ALL CONSTRUCTION IN THE RIVER BED”
Marco your a jerk.
Gracy you are probably right that he is Smedley.
Marco & one of the Anonymous is Smedley,he seems to bad mouth everyone linked to Patti or Gayle.
Check out the way he ripped at you, instead of saying anything nice.
Gracy Wow, the info above is very interesting. That is probably why Marco ripped you, your very smart. And your right, why in the hell did the council approve all these homes in the river bed. could it be because some of them got paid off by Griffin? I wouldn't be surprised, our City Officials are all a bunch of theives.
Gracy, it seems that when anyone states something in opposition to you all you can do is make a personal attacks. Please stop, it is embarrassing for you and your family. You are not the abundance of knowledge on this subject, in fact I would suggest that you leave it to the experts. While us anons are not the experts, we at least make an effort to research the material and talk to the experts. We DO NOT get our information from the national inquirer.
With regards to Eminent Domain, please refer to Prop 90, which was all about undoing the current process in which a city can use Eminent domain to force contruction that would benifit the city. I.E. if a land owner is sitting on a piece of property the city can force the sale for a residential development or commercial use. The sale price is at fair market value for the property or a higher price. While Prop 90 opened the door for more lawsuits in the poor manner it was written, it was trying to undo this practice. Marco is right, his statements about the safety of the residents is correct. While Patti did not vote for the heritige valley project, the rest of the council did, thus construction will occur and is occurring. So please deal with the reality of the situation.
As for natural disasters, the catch basin that will be built is twice the size of the current one, this combined with the levee upgrades, will protect the heritage development as well as eldorado. A protection that they never had before.
As for the last four years regarding lawsuites, remember that Patti was on the council 2 years of the 4 years you refer to. A city gets suid by developers, citizens, Pacs and special groups, etc.. all the time, unfortunately Tort reform will not happen because of the lawyers lobby strength. Suits will also be incurred with Patti's new tenure on the council. It is foolish to blame any one council. The NFSP has been in the works since 2002, and has had direct requests from Patti and the other city council members at the time. The current city council only had the end result of the previous city council decisions and directions.
While we need to move on to the future, only a fool does not reflect on the past to guide the future. Patti's history speaks loud and clear to those that are willing to listen with an open mind. She will make mistakes and so will the other city council members, they are in fact human after all. What we need to expect from them is that they look at all the information with an open mind and take the time to do the research and get the facts. That is why they have been elected and that is why they are the decision makers for this community. The general populous generally does not take the time to do the research, review all the materials, and learn about the "big picture". Just look at their voting record and statistics about thier understanding of politics and the world in which they live. Hell, only what 15% know who the supreme court justices are, or even who their senators are. But they know who Jennifer Anistan is sleeping with.
Anon 9:09
Prop 90 it "FAILED".
Here is the site, read and weep
http://vote.ss.ca.gov/Returns/prop/00.htm
If anyone needs to be updated with current events it is you!
Now go back to June 2006 Executive Order!!!!
Your facts are all "WRONG".
Catch basin???
You’re talking about that pile of dirt. The first rains and it's gone.
Now who's idea was that??
That is a joke, what will it catch?
Not the run off the County is projecting.
Lawsuits, Patti???
Let's get with the act here.
The Election is over.
Patti is our new CouncilWoman, like it or not.
She will always make decisions for the best interest of all.
Heritage Valley, all better pray no one lives there this winter.
Reality of the situation, yes flooding and the probability of loss of life.
Great decision the council made, ignoring the “SAFETY” of the Citizens of Fillmore.
PLEASE NOTE:
I AM TALKING TO GAYLE, PATTI or anyone who will not insult me.
NOT YOU ANON, you can never have a decent conversation with anyone!!!!
Subject over with YOU!
That is scary, I do hope our City Council did not use Prop 90 in their decision with Becerra Property.
Also that road is for Private Use for a Private Project for Griffin.
The City will lose the Lawsuit and Patti is not involved.
Smedley, Villegas, Conaway,Dressler and Cuevas are the responsible parties for this Lawsuit.
I HATE THOMAS AND CLAIRE KENNEDY
THEY ARE DISRUPPTIVE FOOLS
Gracy, calm down, put unbunch your pantis and relax, I stated that it TRIED to, I did not say that it WILL. No daaa, I know that it did not pass, thus the comment IT TRIED TO.
Please post a copy of your engineering degree that shows you know anything about catch basins and levees and their designs. I bet you do not even know how a catch basin works, because you have no idea how engineering works. Do not you make inferences, assumptions and personal attacks because you do not know the facts, this makes you sound even more like an idiot.
The law suit reference was in lieu of your comments about other city council members, you are all about blamming others and when you are shown the facts all you can do is make personal attacks. You obviously do not know how to be civil.
And please stop with the subject over, when you get a taste of your own medicine this is how you react. You have a temper tantrum. Think about it if you react this way, then how do you think others react to the way you treat them.
Wake up, drink some coffee, and pull your head out of the clouds. Come back to reality and realize that your opinion is not the only one, the world does not revolve around you. You are an embarassment.
1101 Anon Good points, it nice to see some rational behinmd a post. Prop 90 not invloved in thier decision as it was not on the books and hopefully never will be. However, more and more cities are using eminant domain to purchase land and force it to be developed. The reasoning is that it benifits the city to develop the land. In this instance they seem to be trying to gain an access point to the Heritage devlopment, and to the catch basin that will be built, and ENGINEERED TO WITHIN STAND A 100 YEAR FLOOD AS ALL OF FILLMORE IS DESIGNED. It will provide protection for eldorado and other areas along that shore line. As for Patti invlovement in that Law Suit, well Cecilia Uber brought the facts out to light that while Patti was not on the receiving end she was on the giving end. At least according to the records that cecilia produced at Patti's request. What side do you think she will on in the future? Special Interest or the City of Fillmore and its citizens?
I HATE THOM AND CLAIRE KENNEDY.
THEY ARE DISRUPTIVE FOOLS
Very amusing! Why dont you express that to Claire Kennedy when she is actually on here chatting instead of being a needle butt and hiding behind anonyomous and talking in a hateful bliss . Are you Smedley?
Are you McCall?
Are you Hernandez?
Are you Conaway?
Frogy 6:38 am
These grand ideas of building in the riverbed , building next to the sewer plant ,those responsible or partially, Ken Smedley, Cuevas, Villegas, Dressler,Conway and the cheerleaders were Cecelia Goober Uber, Linda Brewster(Griffin and Campbell flew her in for a special pep rally), Roger Campbell, Shirley Spitler, Michael McMahan and Shelly Boblett.
Patti or Gayle,
One of you, Please tell us all.
Was this decision for a private or public project.
Why if legitimate did the City Council vote on it in the Midnight Hour?
One tends to think a misjustice has taken place.
I HATE THOM AND CLAIRE KENNEDY
ALL
The Eminent Domain info I quoted above was from
http://www.wikipedia.org/
http://www.google.com/
and
http://dictionary.reference.com/
gracy how interesting the info and sites you posted.
very enlightening for everyone here.
who are these Anonymouse people and why is that one is attacking you.
I read long long comments, they do not make any sense. The only information I got out of it is he hates you, gracy and clairek.
When I read and read I see you two woman supported patti & gayle. So he doesn't like you because of that.
I agree gracy ignoring someone is the only way.
as for eminent domain I am interested in patti or gayle's comments.
i will come back later to read their answers.
Its apparent he dislikes himself,
otherwise he wouldnt be so abrasive
and rude
its a sign that he was not potty trained properly
Diane needs to get a life and get over the Kennedy's!
Gracy it is noce that you quoted some dictionaries and encyclopedia's what does that have to do with what is currently being practiced throughout the state of California? The practice is taking land from thier owners to be developed based on the city's interpretation of what is of benifit to the city. there have been several cases in which eminate domain is used for PRIVATE development, and other instances when it is used for roads highways, etc...
I would venture to say that simply does not like Gracy and her winning. It seems that he shows respect for Gayle and her opinions, but may disagree with some of them. Gracy simply doesn't make any sense. She never answered his/ her question about having an engineering degree. Gracy do you have a degree or are you just making things up?
Anon 257, isn't all of Fillmore built on a river bed? If we have a 400 year flood will that not destroy all of Fillmore? The city staff and Bert Rapp have stated that the city levee system and catch basins are designed to withstand a 100 year flood, hasn't it been shown that it worked perfectly when we had rains in the last few years? I heard a lot of comments about how the sepse levee was washed away, but then Bert statd that this was how it was designed. With the new construction the designs account for a 100 year flood. isn't this what we want more protection from flooding?
After watching the City Council meeting last evening im in complete awe on how much our sewer rates will be increasing. Right now we pay $27-30 a month. According to the speaker and city staff , in 2009 our rates will be as high $98.00 now thats as of today. I expect it to be over $100.00 . This will be a public outrage once its widely known by all. The new sewer plant will cost us millions to construct and to maintain. Again the City of Fillmore is on a spending frenzy. Im sure there are more enviromentally friendly ways to improve our sewer system instead of building a new plant.
Anon
Correction, it seems you’re a bit behind in your Current Events.
I also mentioned Google, that is updated new information.
President Bush 43, June 2006 he signed and Executive Order.
Google Search the Executive Order, it reverted all back to the 5th Amendment.
Note that it states, only for Public use and for Public Projects.
As for Eminent Domain, I suggest you keep reading current events.
There are numerous Cases on file through out the Nation.
You shall see, governments can no longer take private property for private projects.
These actions have only occurred during the last year, June of 2005.
You shall see our City will lose this Lawsuit with Bacerra, as they have most in the past.
Our City Council hurried a decision last Tuesday, when there were numerous compromises.
They ignored the compromises and proceed with their arrogance.
Oh by the way, I am a Genius in Engineering and YOU?
I am very proud to say that, I have a Certified letter to state this.
I didn’t have to say this, but maybe NOW this will stop your negative made up accusations about me.
anonymous's 9:00 & 9:02 AM
Looks like the same person.
INSERT FOOT!!!!
What do you have to say for your engineering education?
i happen to agree with tom ristau in regards to the planning commission. they are not doing their jobs . i do believe wally is the only one who has the coomon sense and integrity to do what is right , as far as the others they are inept as they come.
The Army Corp of Engineers in New Orleans said that their Levee system was to hold a Cat 3 Hurricane, and we all know what happened there.
First, yes Gracy, I would to see your letter, please post it or ask gayle to. Google is not a reference book, a reference web site, or anything else other then a search engine. Thus, cannot be referenced, a site that it recommends can be though.
The interpretation of Emininate domain by the court system is unfolding as we speak, but again the interpretation is that if it benifits the city the city can purchase it for fair market value, hence the reason for several law suits regarding Eminent Domain. Please see
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/09/26/60minutes/main575343.shtml
for more details, it is a report from CBS news. And explains what you do not seem to understand. In case you do not wish to look at it here is an exerpt
CBS) Just about everyone knows that under a process called eminent domain, the government can (and does) seize private property for public use - to build a road, a school or a courthouse.
But did you know the government can also seize your land for private use if they can prove that doing it will serve what's called "the public good"?
If you are a genius in Engineering then why is it that you cannot understand how a catch basin works opr a levee work? I have had extensive conversations with persons that are far more proficient then you on this subject. From civil engineers to Bert Rapp, the stats and design show that it will do exactly what it was intended to do. With regards to new orleans, the discovery channel did an extensive report on what happened, their comments were that the flood surpassed the design intentions. Once it over flowed it caused underminning of the levee, causing it to fail. So, again it performed as designed, but once its design limits were achieved it failed.
I find it interesting that you have a letter, uh, how about a degree in engineering. A letter is not worth the paper it is written on, my bachelors degree on the other hand included Physics, mechanics, hydrothermic dynamics and the like, thus I have had courses that provide a background to understand what is being presented. While my degree is not spefically in engineering, it does provide me enough knowledge to know what the engineers are talking about and to understand the implications of the stats, specs, etc.. that go into the design.
Gracy, Please forgive me, but I find it interesting how you keep saying you are going to ignor me, but then respond, Maybe it is because I know exactly how you think and that is why I am proficient in showing exactly what an embarassment you are.
Gracy does letter certify that you are crazy, it seems as though it might. Dilusional I would venture to say.
Anon your are absolutely correct.
I have failed to ignore you, as I have said.
I couldn't let your statement go with out a legitimate response.
I have learned.
Calling me names just shows how mature you actually are.
Like the FOF, most here in Fillmore do not appreciate that kind of conduct.
Now.......
Gracy we love you,
I saw the poll results for Mayor.
Conaway, Campbell and Smedley have been on the blog.
By what I read here, these Anonymous bad mouthing, beligerant, disgusting people are trying to ram rod this site.
Conaway go sell some SCE Poles to Griffin, that way you can see Campbell. Smedley go sell some water purifiers to Griffin that way you can see Conawy and Campbell.
Lips interesting circle, it seems as though everyone in this blog is against freedom of speach by attacking the anon's and the anon's attacking certain people. While it is stated that this blog is about the people of Fillmore having a place to voice themselves, That this is not allowed to be done freely. If anyone speaks in favor of the council they are bashed, if anyone speaks against a certain perspective they are bashed. If anyone speaks about an issue and someone else dissagrees with it, like gracy or ClaireK, that they are bashed. So where is the open mindedness and ability to freely speak ones mind in this blog? I am not sure but I am not seeing it.
It's not that your bashed as an Anon. It is what you say. You are not nice and everyone is just chatting.
Freedom of speech, fine, but not to call names.
I read gracy, she is asking Patti & Gayle a question not you. You answer the question and call her names.
You are just taking advantage of this site to call names
Hi Lips,
Thanks, yes my questions are directed to Patti and Gayle.
Lets go back to Eminent Domain.
I prefer better examples
than ie: cbs
How about a site about the U. S. Constiution.
I'll check in later. By then I may have that site to share.
Once again you prove you do not understand, let say how the constitution has been interpreted by city's and the courts. Read the article it explains a lot about how city have interpreted Eminent domain to be based on the city interpretation of the constitution to include the PUBLICS BENIFIT. I.E. reality check city are practicing the act of taking land away for private use. Ooops did you hear that a big whole juts ripped open in your argument, wait you had no argument, just rhetoric as usual. Your premises are based on an ideal world, guess what we do not live in one.
Lips I appreciate your comments, if you read most of the anons posts their are directed at Gracy or another anon. Gracy started this transaction with her personal attacks. First by calling people ignorant, then by not acknowledging their opinions, but rather dismissing them. Then when she got a taste of her own medicine she could not handle it and started to whimper and cry about how she is treated. Then she told everyone to ingor them. Thus, while her questions are directed to Gayle, this Blog is for everyone, she was Gayle treasurer, if she wanted a question answered she could call Gayle. Instead she posts it and then when the question is repsonded to she bashes everyone that dissagrees with her, and throws in personal attacks as well. All she has to do is stop. And guess what they will dissapear, poof no more personal attacks, but people do not want to be attacked, they have the right to defend themselves, and if she does not like it then to bad.
She should grow up and realize that the world does not revolve around her.
Gracy I noticd that you are still not ignoring the anons. Why? you keep repeating yourself, yet are still answering them. I thought they did not make any sense, I thought that you hated them and wanted to ignor them. I thought that they did not know how to have a colloquy. Just stop feeding into them and talk about the topics, stop letting them run the blog and take back control by sticking to the conversations at hand.
Where is Gayle, at least she brought some calmness to these discussions, even though they are being made one sided by gracy.
You have a problem Anonymous.
Leave gracy and the rest of the people here alone, seems your the one talking nonsense and insulting the people here.
gee wizz grow up
your also long winded
take a deep breathe and a cold shower, try to talk civily and so will everyone else.
talk like you have been and forget it.
Sweetie Please forgive me, but we anons have been down that road and all Gracy can do is insult us, she is downright mean. Thus, we have the right to defend ourselves, if she cannot take what she dishes out then she should stop it. We anons are not going to back down and shut up and listen to her rants. We have every right to express ourselves as she does. But, thank you for trying, you are as your name states sweet, but there is nosaving Gracy, she woke the sleeping dragon.
There is nothing wrong being a Treasurer, at least she go involved.
You sound like a sore loser. What do you say Ken???
Anonymous 6:43 and the rest of YOU!!
I know you are several Anons
You busted yourself Ken Smedley.
We who know you, knows you like the "Dragon".
You lost and get over it.
Your mad at gracy because she didn't support you.
We live in America, people have a right to support and vote for who ever they want.
I am glad you lost.
Ohh that is why he is so mean.
You can't sweet talk me Smedley.
I didn't vote for you, your mean.
At least she got involved in our City, unlike over half of our people.
Anonymous 6:43 that is terrible.
You saying,
"but there is nosaving Gracy"
and all the mean things you have thrown her way.
She is a very nice woman, with a big heart.
Take a good look at yourself in a mirror, who are you?
Someone who is respected here in Fillmore. A reputable business man or woman here.
Would you like the people to really know?
Why can't you use your real name?
Afraid someone would think of you differently.
But you are so brave to call out and demean gracy.
yeah big boy.
Haha you guys are to funny, someone gives Gracy a taste of her own medicine and you all blame everyone except her. We anons are not trying to sweet talk anyone, we are trying to actually discuss the facts and present facts. The problem seems to be that emotions rule, logic is out the door. Everytime someone make a factual statement that proves Gracy's premises wrong you al come to her defense. Nice person, Gracy from what I have read you are definately not a nice person, insecure yes, afraid of the truth yes, delusional yes. but open minded no, willing to discuss issues from all perspectives no, willing to accept others no, whata shame, I feel so sorry for you. You must live a very sheltered life. Your big heart must be exploding with because of all the anger you spew.
Sweetie, This has nothing to do with the election, it is over, it does have to do with the issues that are currently facing Fillmore. We have seen enough mud slinging by Gracy and ClaireK let us give it a rest and have a discussion about the issues.
It seems as though the main issues of today are:
1) the NFSP, while the referendum forced it to become the master plan for North Fillmore, what can be done to ensure that the planning commission and the city council will limit the densities and three story contruction? It seems as though the planning commission is in opposition to the current city council, they want lower density and the city council is okay with higher density.
Gayle or Gracy or anyone else, what would you suggest to do in order to get more public involvement in this?
Please do not bash anyone just discuss the issue
2) crime and graffitti, what can be done immediately, and for the liong term? what is the core reason behind the recent years worth of increased crime? Is is gangs? unsupervised Children? Illegal immigration? Is it due not enough of a police presence? Is it due to not enough programs or activities that involve "at risk" persons that perpetrate the crimes?
3) the sewer treatment plant? I believe that someone stated that the sewer rates were going to be increased to over $100 dollars. Why? I know that the answer is the LA regional Water Control Board is forcing us to construct the new plant, but why are they not financially supporting their mandate as California state Law indicates they should? Why is the city not suiing the LA regional water control board over this issue to obtain revenue to pay for the plant?
I know that the city staff stated that they have worked tirelessly to find a means to keep the rates to a minimum and under $100, but what else can be done? Grants do not seem to be panning out, so what is left?
4) education? We have a new superintendent and management at the school district, what are their plans to improve test scores? When will we see the results? What happens if the test scores do not improve? Etc...
I know that these topics are not new, and have been discussed at the candidate forums and in the gazzette, but with the election over what is in the future for Fillmore? Again please try not to bash, but simply lets have a discussion, maybe some good will come of it.
Anon 8:48
Good luck in all.
I need to go prepare for a party of 8+ tomorrow.
I may particpate late tomorrow or Friday. I will behave too.
All out there besides all differences
Have a Safe and Happy Thanksgiving
You too gracy, everyone please have a safe and happy thankgiving.
Sorry everyone...I haven't been able to respond to your comments but it looks like you've been doing fine without me. So many interesting and varied comments. I'm going to post a new topic on last night's council meeting for the sewer plant.
In the meantime...marc o: The safety of future Fillmoreons was sold "down the river" when the HVP was approved.
Building in the floodplain or altering it with levees will create impacts sooner or later.
No Adverse Impact is a policy that cities and counties are trying to implement to protect lives and property from flood damage.
You can read more here:
http://www.floods.org/NoAdverseImpact/whitepaper.asp
As far as the eminent domain issue, it will boil down to the definition of "public" use. I suppose a road is a public use, but ultimately, as Becerra's lawyer pointed out, it benefits Griffin Industries more than the public.
I suppose there is some history that I'm not aware of but what's most disturbing is that the City had no inclination to negotiate with Becerra. Their request to provide a road for better access to their other property seemed reaosnable. The other problem I have is that I have heard from the dais on two occasions that "we don't do that" in reference to eminent domain.
I appreciate the thought and research that went into everyone's comments. Gracy is doing a great job and has done her homework on eminent domain.
strawberry and anonymous commented about the Planning Commission. I was at the meeting last Wednesday. I don't blame them for continuing the hearing. First, as one commissioner pointed out, there didn't appear to be adequate public notice. They had to get a legal opinion on that. The legal opinion was that they didn't have to notice anyone because it was a continuation of a previous meeting and no one was at that previous meeting.
That was a terrible thing to say as far as I'm concerned. It's a perversion of the intent of public hearings, which are to include the public in the decision making process - not to get by with the most minimum of requirements because you can get away with it legally.
Then the conditions of approval were handed out at the meeting. If I was a commissioner I would also have to adquately review these documents before approval.
There is also some concern about the rush in calling a special meeting to get the project approved. The commissioners didn't look too happy about being called in for this special rush meeting. Should we be rushing projects through like this? Should we be circumventing the process?
There are also still questions about how to apply development standards with/without a NFSP. Without the NFSP, the zoning is still Residential Low and the project up for approval is too high density. Roger Myers was called at his vacation location and put on the speaker phone to try and clarify the situation and it was still too confusing.
Someone asked what to do to get more public involvement in this. I would suggest going to the meetings and speaking out, contacting the Planning Commission to express your thoughts, contacting Tom Ristau or City Council members to request better public notification and maybe workshops for public input.
I wish we could get along a little better. It's like a dysfunctional family here sometimes but I still welcome all opinions.
yo anon got you figured out.
read your Google/Blogger name
MARCO
year,DRAGON=full of hot air!
zodiac,PISCES=wishy-washy !!
Its always GRACY with you!
Move on ,you are proving all your
short comings you are so abusive
to women.I'll bet you beat your wife when she out smarts you,or
when you disagree
As far as people still responding
to you...Your like a pesky fly
in the room,your annoying. Natural
instincts says SWAT IT !!
You must be very proud of yourself.
Call your Mother and Father today,
be sure to tell them what a great
job they did of raising you!
NOW BUZZ OFF !!!
Dragon Slayer interesting thoughts, yo u learn english in embonix classes or what. Again an emotional response to a logical conclusion. This is the best you can do dragon slayer, lol, please come up with something better.
Gayle you sound like Patti with your comments about HVP, I know that she did not want it to be approaved, and was involved in the law suit to stop it, but the bottom line was that it was approved and is now under construction, so what is next? while the project currently is private, soon it will be public, it will transition from Private develop to a devlopment full of fillmoreons that wil vote, have concerns, and will become part of this community. While I understand the arguments of the Attorney, I also understand the long term ramifications of not having the road. I also know that the road has been the topic of discussion for a long time, and only now has come to the forefront of the discussion. Bottom line in my opinion is once this project was approved it was only a matter of time before the road needed to be built. THeir attorney knows this and knows that what the city is doing is legal and the city will probably prevail, but you never know maybe this case will be the one that makes a change.
Gayle, while I understand Gracy's desire to learn about Eminent Domain and she does know the ideal use of it, the problem is how it is being applied accross the country. Eminent Domain is very contraversial, and sometimes tough decision need to be made by city councils, but again if it benifits the city then they can use it. In this instance and in the long term the road will benifit future fillmoreons, it will reduce traffic, a constant request of yours, it will provide more access points in case of an emergency, etc... the current land owner will be paid for the land at a profit, what he needs to do is try to get future profit from his business included, then he will be even better off. The HVP will be happy and he will be happy.
gayle to answer your question, NO we should not be rushing projects, why was this project being rushed? what is the issue and the need to have it rushed?
Gayle, I will not rehash the whole NFSP, plan as we have discussed it in the past, but I must re-iterate that the NFSP bacame the master plan for the area, that the GP called for, the GP allowed up to 894 homes to be built over the 101 acres of the NFSP, based 0n the 2003 city council's vote. Again, this meant that A there needs to be a master plan developed for the area and B that the master plan can include up to 894 homes at 5 - 20 DU per acre. You keep going to he chicken or the egg argument, when in this case the egg came before the chicken, with the allowance of up to 894 homes to be encorporated into a future master plan to be designed for the area. IT IS NOT RL, that was the designation when it was designated industrial. Again I know that Patti keeps saying this to you, but please try to understand that this is mis-information. You have posted this information on this blog, in black and white, please try to understand that this type of misinformation is creating a lot of problems.
Forgive me, the black and white reference was to your listing of the GP update and LU documents on this blog, in which is specifically stated 5-20 DU up to 894
Gayle, thank you for your suggestion, but the problem does not seem to be the need for informaion about what the public can do, but more along the lines of how to get the public involved.
Gayle what is ineresting abou the article you quoted, is that it basically states that the mitigation measures worked as designed, but the design was the problem, it increased the water speed, and altered the flows down stream from where the mitigation measure was impilmented. I would think that this means that the mitigation measures for HVP is a good thing for Fillmore, but maybe not santa paula, but then again we do not have enough information about this specific case with regards to the downstream effects of the HVP mitigation measures.
One thing that I do know is that I am glad we our levees, otherwise we would not be here right know, isn't this like cutting off your nose to spite your face, we do not want levees nor catch basins, but then we would not be here right know based on our rains over the last few years, remember when the Piru dam overflowed, but our levee held. Isn't this a good thing?
So, with that said, isn't the real issue the development not being wanted?
anon: Geez you can't let an opportunity pass to pick on Patti(pop - I'll use that for shortcut from now on). Do you think she's the only one that was opposed to HVP? And, as far as I know, she was not opposed to the project itself. I believe her issues were inclusionary housing and floodplain revisions. I wasn't here and we have not discussed in depth so take my comment as just my guess.
Yes, it is approved and moving forward. The road is required for future phases. But, why not compromise with Mr. Becerra's reasonable request for road access? Why go to a lawsuit to resolve the situation? Where is the common sense? Where is the moral obligation to protect our rights?
I also have another question. Is Becerra's property not outside the CURB and Sphere? How can the City eminent domain without annexing first and going through CURB change process(whatever that is)?
There are many folks here who will argue your point that HVP will be a benefit to the City. Development does not pay for itself. The people buying down there will have a $69,00 lien on their homes for CFD(paid off in 30 years), plus HOA dues, etc. The additional traffic, school impacts, public service costs will not be a benefit.
The amount of money and city resources that have been spent to plan, fund and accommodate development has far outpaced any other public benefits that could have been gained.
My thoughts(which are confirmed in SCAG studies) are that our population is stable as far as growth and all the influx being forced upon cities is due to immigration. Are there developer/construction lobbies up in Sacramento changing legislation to take the land use away from cities? They are the same lobbyists who wrote and marketed Proposition 1C. They will be awash in cash now to build lots of affordable housing that we will subsidize for years. Where will they get the buyers? They will have to open the borders. That is the only way to keep this economy afloat.
anon 9:03: Why is the project(Reider) being rushed? The City Council was trying to accommodate Mr. Reider's request for hearing his 3-story, high density project. There are a lot of conflicts with the GP/MP/SP with this project.
Pure speculation warning! Maybe he wanted to have the project approved before Patti is seated on the council?
I think the NFSP should be revised at a lower number. All of the groundwork has been done. It doesn't make sense that we're not considering a lower density revision. The EIR has already been certified. If this Master Plan idea sticks the EIR's will have to be redone.
other anon: Sorry, but the Master Plan/NFSP is for 700 homes. The 894 designation is intended for the Master Plan which is now the NFSP for 700 homes. Baaaaak! LOL, that's my chicken cluck. The chicken/egg thing tickled me.
anon 3: How to get the public involved? Just raise their awareness. That has been the most surprising thing to me. I'm not saying that city affairs are done in secret - they are trying to follow the letter of the law. But, there is a definite lack of public outreach. You can see why. Just the public involvement for NFSP has been a pain in the **** for staff and council as well as developers and consultants. Pesky public.
But, without exception, just the average people on the street are concerned and want to slow down the pace of development that is hurting our quality of life. They miss the rural, agricultural town that they either were raised in or moved to.
The biggest outreach we have seen is the Vision 2020 update. Unfortunately, the Vision 2020 is the public's only view of the future of Fillmore and that is a false view. Is it meant to calm the public's fears? The General Plan Update is totally opposite of Vision 2020. The GPU states that they will "change the character of Fillmore". Were you aware of that? Does it say that in Vision 2020?
If the public wants to get involved please call me at 524-7313 or email gaylewashburn@sbcglobal.net and I will include you in email notices. I will try to post any future meetings of CFRG here as well.
anon: Yes, the real issue is that when you have to build levees or alter the riverbed flow to accommodate development that there are repurcussions elsewhere. The development should be done elsewhere. If there is no "elsewhere", then move on to the next town instead of altering the floodplain.
As far as affecting Santa Paula, I think the more adverse affects would be on Bardsdale, as seen in the NON-flood year 2005 rains. The damage was devastating to farmers, school farm and equestrian center, Basolo family, etc. Is it possible that the Riverwalk levee affected the south bank? Absolutely. But if you read the HVP flood studies, they deny any significant adverse affects to the south bank from a levee. This is why I do not trust some studies. The affects were significant, predictable and visible.
Gayle thank you for taking the time to respond, I would like to continue this dialog, but you make several valid points and others that seem to be in line with my points, for example, you finally admitted that the NFSP became the master and seem to understand that a master plan of up to 894 homes could be planned for north Fillmore, but instead we have 700. What I do not understand though is two things, one, you asked for RL for the area at 700 homes, taking into account the 101 acres versus the 99 acres, thus mission accomplished, you have it. Second, the max is 700 homes, it seems to me that with pressure on the planning commission and city council these initial projects like the Rieder project you and teh gazette talked about could be reduced to more of a reasonable number of homes. Which leads me to public involvement, it seems that the public in general simply is not interested in getting involved. They are more interested in watching friends, than the city council meetings, I know I get a lot of flack for watching it when and usually have to do so in another room. But with exception of a few people 20-30 that came to the NFSP meetings, that the other 14537 are not interested. Public outreach seems to not work, getting the word out through word of mouth does not seem to work for the majority, so what will work?
The only thing seems to work is when it is almost to late and a project is being forced down their throat.
The levees, I do not believe that we have enough information to make any determination about the effects of them. They seem to be working as designed, and the studies that have been conducted show no problem or little problem down stream, If you or I are going to challange this then we need to have more information, an emotional response does not serve any porpose in undoing or forcing the city council to change some of the design eliments.
AS for the HVP, to my recall Patti voted no on the whole project, wrote the letter the galegly, and got involved in the law suit against the city, it sure seems as though she was not in support of it. Additionally, as for developers paying their fair share, I agree to dissagree with you, HVP home owners will have full disclosure regarding the HOA and melarouse or bond for the contrustion of the levees to be paid off for the next 30, if they choose to purchase their they do it understanding the costs. HVP is putting in a elementary school, at no cost to the tax payors, the school will cost from the projections I have read about far more than what DIF's that would have been paid to the school district. The DIF's pay for infrastructure, and the citizens that enter the community increase our tax base, and help to bring businesses to town, especially a good resturant. Again, it seems as though you say you are for growth, yet your comments seem to be so anti growth that you are for no growth. I personally, am for limited growth, we need to protect this city from becoming valencia, simi valley, the san ferndando valley, etc... but at the same time we do need to improve our tax base, jobs, and commerce.
dragon lizzard...
always blowing smoke arent you?
now go outside and play nice
like a good little lizzard!
Gayle
Since City Hall is overwhelmed with Professionals.
Why isn’t there someone who is in Public Relations?
That is the answer, Public Relations and getting the information out to the Public.
(If there is, he or she has been doing a terrible job and needs to be replaced.)
Public Relations, someone Qualified, with Letters of Recommendations (Proof of their skills and ability) included in their Resume.
Not someone's relative, friend, X-Councilperson, X-City Manager or Mayor.
That seems to be the general prerequisite to get a job in City Hall.
As for Council meetings, the Gazette is the only paper where Council Meetings and information on upcoming Items are posted. There posted in fine 4 font print, sometimes smaller and in the Legal Notice section.
People don't see that, nor do most read the Legal Notices.
In all it is not that the Citizens here don’t get involved.
It is that they are not properly notified on up coming Meetings and Agenda’s.
The common citizens have no knowledge of how procedures are done in City Hall,
concerning the management of City Council meetings and agendas.
Last minute up roars, are because of the secrecy and the manipulation at Council meetings.
Never has any Councilperson made an effort to better the involvement of the Citizens here.
Nor better the notification To the Public of Meetings and Agenda Items.
The less the people know the better. That way the Agenda Items are past.
This is the norm sitting City Council philosophy.
Or wait till the midnight hour and there won’t be very many people in the Chamber.
Great examples NFSP, Becerra's Eminent Domain and now the Reider Project, special meetings, 3 stories (The public does not want)
That is the problem with Citizens involvement here, it is the City Council.
Gracy good points, maybe you would not mind going in front of the city council and make a few suggestions. Channel 10 states the dates of the meetings, but maybe they could also state the agenda, suggest that the Gazette uses a larger font, and puts the information on page 2, and your thoughts about public relations is a good one, the only thing is that a public relations person is all about spin, so the end result might be more of the same, only spun more.
I do believe though that even if all this was done, if not more, that the general public would still not be interested. They barely even now who our council is let alone their representatives in Congress. But, if it spurs even a small amount of increased interest it would be worth it.
Nice to meet you Gracy, it seems that we have gotten past our tribulations and are now able to talk openly. Please accept my apologizes.
Dragon master, I would be blowing smoke than what you are blowing. Have a nice day.
Oops I left out Rath, it should have stated I would rather be blowing smoke than what you are blowing, have a nice day.
More is always better, that means more posting in Public Forums as well as more people going to the meetings. I do consider those watching Ch 10 as being involved as well. Ch 10 gives the disable and parents with small children the opportunity to be a part of the meetings too.
Of course getting everyone involved is next to impossible, but if the level of participation can be raised. I would consider that an accomplishment.
As for a Public Rel person, I do not consider it Spin, especially when the info is coming from City Hall. I consider it Public information from City Hall. The Info can be neutral; it does not need to be one sided
Gayle
It troubles me to read that Becerra's Attorney tried to negotiate or compromise and
there was no effort on the part of the City of Fillmore to negotiate with him.
Also that the funding for the road in question (taken by Eminent Domain)
will be from a Private Source, Developers Funds.
So that means that a road for HVP a private entity is taken by Eminent Domain.
I see several troubling technicalities; here are two Major Technicalities.
1.) No compromising or negotiating for Becerra’s Land.
Judges like to read that there was some type of communications and negotiating.
They do not like to see Legal Actions taken with a one sided view.
Nor without exhausting all avenues by both parties.
2.) The funding of this Road for Construction.
Once, under Eminent Domain, shouldn’t the funds be from Public Funds?
It troubles me that the funding will be from Griffin, Private Funds.
That in turn links Private, Developers Interest and not Publics Interest.
Here is the White House site on the Presidential Executive order on Eminent Domain, June 2006.
This pretty much wiped out the
U. S. Supreme Court order of June 2005.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/06/20060623-10.html
Gracy good job with the research, two points if I may, the executive order only pertains to FEDERAL taking of lands, and it states that lands can be taken if they are to be used by the public. The road will be used by the public, so this would apply, I wonder how this has affected things at the state level. Also, I believe that the city is using DIF's to pay for the land, otherwise Griffin is purchasing it, only to turn over the rights to the city upon completion of the project. He has to this at parts of the conditions for approval, and I am sure that he does not want to have to pay for the mainenence of the road after completion.
Good job Gracy, we only need to tighten up the results of the research and it can be presented to the city council
Has anyone talk with tom ristau to find out why the city did not negotiate with him?
I beg to differ with you.
Read carefully, the Order pertains to Americans, this is the 5th Amendment.
The order specifically states,
“By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America, and to strengthen the rights of the American people against the taking of their private property, it is hereby ordered as follows:
Section 1. Policy. It is the policy of the United States to protect the rights of Americans to their private property, including by limiting the taking of private property by the Federal Government to situations in which the taking is for public use, with just compensation, and for the purpose of benefiting the general public and not merely for the purpose of advancing the economic interest of private parties to be given ownership or use of the property taken “
The first sentence in Section 1., Read it carefully, it includes the Federal Governments actions.
It states:
It is the policy of the United States to protect the rights of Americans to their private property, including by limiting the taking of private property by the Federal Government
Conclusion;
State and Federal.
That is why the U.S. Supreme Court even took the motion.
Read carefully Public use is in the order too.
The words, " Public Use" has been losely defined in the past.
Anon you didn't get # 2.
I don't care how the funds are funneled. The fact remains this is an Action in behalf of the Public.
I know how roads, sidewalks etc are covered or can be covered financially during regular Construction.
This is an Act empowered by a City Council for Public Use.
In taking these actions the funds or procedure in order to make the road should in no way be the same procedure as regular Construction.
In other words the guidelines to take the Action of Eminent Domain and the procedure to the finality of that Action, all should be under specific procedures, rules and or guidelines.
I would not be surprised there are certain guidelines.
I will look into this too.
Gracy, you really have done some research. Even that Anonymous guy who has been mean to you admired your work.
Makes sense about Public relations person. Our city hall needs to communicate better with their people.
sweetie, gayle has Google to thank for that. not to mention the power of copying and pasting.
Let us add another Serious Technicality
3.) Becerra’s property is “OUTSIDE CITY LIMITS”
I read this last night.
Now where does the City have the power to go into the County?
I can not find any information that allows this Action to take place.
As I read in the Gazette, the City only has this power when a road is for a Public Facility.
What Public Facility is in the Area?
Again we go back to, the road is for Private Property, HVP.
Here is the Heritage Valley Park Specific Plan of 2002
http://www.fillmoreca.com/eir/HVP%20Specific%20Plan-Oct%202002.pdf
In general it shows most of the maps (pg.16 and more).
I believe there has been some changes near the Santa Clara River, due to a Court Order.
Do correct me on this.
Yet in all this is helpful to visualize the Becerra Property in comparison to the HVP Development.
I do not see any Public Facility that the Road in question with help the Public to access.
I believe that would be a requirement as to why Eminent Domain is to be used, Public Use.
Good points Gracy, but I would argue that that the wording used in the executive order pertains only to the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT as it states twice in the excerpt you posted. The use FEDERAL GOVERNMENT is done for a reason, it does not state STATE AND FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, if it did then the executive order would have been challanged by the states. as for the supreme court decision, I have not heard that they have made any decision regarding Eminent Domain, pertaining to the use of it as Fillmore's city council is doing, I have heard of other city's that have done used Eminen domain in this manner and they have won the case, took the land etc... SO while I understand why you are saying what you are, you are leaving out the word Federal and implying that Federal superceeds all state functions and decisions, this is false, a state can do something in complete opposition of the federal government, unless it is a law, an executive order is not a law, the state of California is challanging marijuana use for persons with a prescription and thus far have won it. The executive branch of government does not make laws, the congress does, and the executive branch can veto those laws, the executive branch can however introduce a law for congress to consider. An executive order is not a law, thus the states can do what they will.
With Regards to HVP, it is being built in the curb, it states thus in the first few pages of the doc you referenced, and this is why it does not have to follow the Low income housing requirements. HVP is outside of the redevelopment agency's realm, second, under the executive summary it list all the public facilities it plans to bring to the area, from the elementary school to fire subhouse,to bike paths, the levee, etc... This may be a loop hole in the law, but these are public facilities, Additionally, as part of the conditions for approval it states on page 1-17 "Annexation to the city: Pursuant to the approval of Heritage valley parks specific plan by the city, a simultaneous application will be submitted by the city to amend the sphere of influence and to annex areas within the existing and amend sphere of influence" in other words they will apply to make the land part of the city. Maybe you should find out when those hearings are to take place and go. It seems as though the land that they annexing is a stip of land that is long and narrow. While it might be 2+ acres it is long and narrow, so I can see why the city feels that is not making a major impact on his propertys. But, then again it is his land, for now.
Gracy one more thing, the road in question provides for another access point to the public services, if and in looking at the design, will also provide access to the levee for repairs or maintenence.
Isn't the public elementary school a public facility as well?
Executive order
From Wikipedia
Most executive orders are orders issued by the President to United States executive officers to help direct their operation, the result of failing to comply being removal from office. Some orders do have the force of law when made in pursuance of certain Acts of Congress due to those acts giving the President discretionary powers
_____________________________________________
I differ with you, it can be Law and I am not changing nor adding words.
Again in the Executive Order, the Words,
"rights of the American people"
Rights of the American People, Rights that is plural.
No specification as to State or Federal only states “Rights”.
and the use of the word,"including"
in this phrase, "including by limiting the taking of private property by the Federal Government"
It includes the Federal Government.
Including the Federal Government, in my interpretation means he was talking about State Law and Federal.
Remember this was action taken in connection with an Eminent Domain Motion in Connecticut.
A State case file.
In all the best Attorney that can argue his point of what is and isn't Public Use will win.
As for a road for the Elementary School.
The School is on the Westside of Eldorado not the East side.
No argument for Public Access.
You are right in that a good attorney will be able to argue what is in the public interest or the public "good", and probably win, I will agree to dissagree with you on the eminent domain issue, the executive specifically states federal government, to me this means it is limited to the federal governments ability to seize lands from eminent domain, If memory serves me the case you are speaking of and others that may have pertained to this order refer to the federal goverment taking land for its use. I feel that the this order would exceeed the federal governments authority and thus does not apply. While some of the executive orders give the pres more power telling a state what it can and cannot do with its land is not one of those orders. The state would have to make that decision.
The elementary school access, I know that it is on the opposite side, but again a good attorney wil use the road to show alternative routes or access to the school site. Additionally, to the levee, etc... it is not hard to prove the correlation of the road to the needs to the future public facility.
To each their own opinion.
That is why there are the Courts.
When it comes to Eminent Domain, one should never minimize the "Rights of the American People".
That, goes to Constitutional Law which starts at the State Level and can and has gone all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court.
The Motion in Conn. I was talking about was, Private Property was taken by Eminent Domain and given to a Private Entity, Developers.
The President acted, because to many Private Properties where being takne by Eminent Domain.
For the benefit of Developers not for the Public.
The road for the School, it already is there, Mtn view.
Look at the Map.
About half way up the page someone asked "when is the new school superintendent going to get the scores up?” or something to that effect. FUSD scores have been going up every year! My child is receiving an excellent education in this district. His scores are consistently in the advanced range. Of course, unlike some of the anonymous bloggers here he has the advantage of parents who can think, read, spell, and write a coherent sentence.
This district does have some challenges, but if you compare the scores of students who spoke fluent English when they started school to students anywhere else in the county, you will see that our teachers do a fine job. The students learning English are doing just that, and as quickly as possible. The playing field is not level.
This post has been removed by a blog administrator.
Sorry, I did not mean to put that up three times. I got an error message and kept trying. Apparently there wasn't really an error. Gayle, can you delete the extras and this comment? I hate to be so untidy.
Smurfy, good points, I am glad that your children are getting a good education, but the problem is that Fillmore Students still have the right to transfer to Moorpark schools because of the test scores, and while the test scores have been going up, they had no other direction to go. If they got worse the school would have been taken over by the state. English as a second language is a major problem in southern cals schools. They start very far behind and a good percentage of parents do not seem to be able to help very much, for this I know of a lot of people who drive their children as far as Simi Valley and Ventura to go to school and use a relatives address in order to ensure that they are able to attend these schools. This is a shame, our football team is doing excellent, and since Mario has left things seem to be getting better, but what I am curious about is the plan, short and long term that the new superintendent has.
hey i know a few fillmorons!
MARC-O POLO
what did Marc-o Pol-o do to you?
they wouldn't let me have water wings in the pool
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