Good questions...Referendum
I see that Anonymous 9:38 AM, has posted a comment with several tough and pertinent questions. I can't wait to get started on them.
Unfortunately, I'm on my way out the door so I will get back to this ASAP.
Okay I'm back...Here is the first question that anonymous had:
"With regards to the referendum, why was it so poorly written that it forces either the citizens to vote for or the city council to undo the NFSP, and instead replace it with the 894 homes in the master plan."
Well, first, the Referendum was well written and immediately certified by the County. Make no mistake, if there was any problem with the Referendum it would have been immediately disqualified. But, it wasn't.
It also does not revert to the 894 homes. This is a fallacy that has been distributed to the public. The facts are thus;
1. The zoning for the North Fillmore area is in the General Plan Update as "Residential Low". If we "undo" the NFSP it will revert to that zoning of 1-7 homes per acre. There is also the Industrial zoned component.
My question to you or the city would be...why should the voice of the citizens be ignored? Why is the 894 homes such a departure from Vision 2020?
posted by Gayle Washburn @ 6:26 PM
42 Comments
Links to this post
42 Comments:
TODAY'S WORD 10-24-2006
VACILLATE- verb
*Waver between courses or opinions.
EXAMPLE:
1. Diane McCall's position on the NFSP. From supporting the original version of 700 plus units too a colossal reduction of 480 units.
Your right, Ms.McCall has went back and forth on her positions. I have grave concerns on her positions.
First of all Gayle I would recommend that you read the masterplan that states that it is up to 894 homes which the City Council that consisted of Everisto, Cecilia, Ernie, Ken and Patti. To ellaborate on this then why is there a new referrandum to reduce it to 350 homes, my assumption is to undo what was done with the original referandum. As for Diane, Come on guys you listen to then Diane and the Planning Commission listens and changes their mind, and now you say I do not trust this. Give me a break, you cannot have your cake and eat it to. This makes no sense. This from what you state this is what you wanted and she listened. Which way do you want it, not to listen or to listen make up your mind.
we get it clairek you don't want McCall in office. Move on or turn the 45 over.
Yes,...... anonymous please read and study the word of the day. Diane McCall has been vacillate time and time again. Is this a trait we need or want representing Fillmore? I say no. Patti Walker and Gayle Washburn have been consistent and have not wavered on their positions. When Patti was in office the proof is , no matter what Roger and the rest of the thugs in FOF say, Patti voted against the 894 homes. Diane has been vacillate and misleading the voters . Your right , "You cant have your cake and eat it to", unless your part of FOF. Come down from your throne!
Anonymous 1:08 pm: I would like to read the Master Plan, but there isn't one.
There is only the General Plan LUE that says there "will" be a Master Plan(which technically is now the NFSP) that "would" ...894"
"Would" be if it was ever done. Have you seen this Master Plan? Kevin McSweeney has said that it doesn't exist.
Here is some clarification for you on the Referendum/Initiative process.
A Referendum only "reverses" a decision. It cannot create anything. Thus the Referendum is to reverse the Land Use designation and stop any further action on the project.
An Initiative "initiates" or creates a new law. Thus, the citizens can change legislation and amend the General Plan just like a developer can(supposedly).
They are both used together in most growth issue campaigns. (Santa Paula, Moorpark)
The Notice of Intent for an Initiative for 350 homes in North Fillmore is an act done so the citizens can have a say in how they want their community to look.
If you had gone to any meetings or read any articles in the paper you would have known that there was always an intention to do an Initiative, but there had to be a lot of discussion on what number the citizens wanted to see.
Lots of people said "0"!! A few said 480(which was option 1 in the EIR). Most wanted something in between. So after much discussion and research and studying maps the 350 was picked.
There was also always the hope that the City would sit down and discuss a reasonable alternative. There was the naive and silly idea that the citizens have a voice in what happens in their community. We have found that in spite of 1600 people who wanted to express that voice they were arrogantly ignored in favor of developers.
You do have a good point that Diane did change her mind and I think that was a good decision. I hope if she gets elected that she continues to listen to the citizens, do the research required and ask the right questions.
My opinion is that by keeping the north Fillmore land destination as residential low, Fillmore may experience a housing shortage in the next 10-15 years not to mention a serious manipulation of the housing market forcing young families and first time buyers to look elsewhere. This may also encourage development outside of the curb line. The high density model for north Fillmore is the best choice for all the people, like it or not.
(This Forum was structured by the comment of Anonymous at 9:38 AM)
Who after last night’s Council meeting exposed himself.
Mr. Conaway, how dare you make a comment about a Legal Document with no Education whatsoever, in the Field of Law!!
The City Attorney was sitting next to you; he clarified that the Referendum was written Properly and Lawful.
It was originally reviewed for circulation by the Courts, then it was certified with the Legal count of Signatures required.
How dare you make negative comments to the Public, sitting in a Public Chair and Forum representing the Public.
Mr.Villegas, how dare you!!! You were disrespectful to the voters who placed you there.
Public Forum is that, PUBLIC FORUM, not Council Forum.
As representatives you are to politely thank the speaker, that is IT!!!!
Not scrutinize, scold, ranting and raving.
Villegas you wouldn’t shut up!!!! You were out of control.
No wonder you decided not to run.
How dare Dressler comment about lowering the count of possible homes to be built in North Fillmore, stating,”It would not be beneficial to the “ DEVELOPERS”
NOW WE KNOW !!!!
How dare Smedley, blast Mr. Moore during Public Forum. That was the time for the PUBLIC only!!
You too were extremely disrespectful to all present.
At the end you ALL acknowledge
“YOU WERE ALL WRONG, ALL OF YOU”
The unanimous vote spoke for its self.
Anonymous#23
First of all I may be mistaken in the master term, but there is a general plan that was ammended during the prior city council term. This general plan for North Fillmore calls for 894 homes, thus while the referandum does not creat law it does undo the specific plan, thus reverting back to the original 894 that can now be peace mealed together by the developers. With regards to the multiple meetings about the new initative, when were they? where they public? I never saw any notice of a public hearing, was this a meeting only with the concerned citizen for growth group, who was the meeting with, and how were all the citizens of fillmore represented?
dear 8:21 and others;
courts do not review referendums or petitions prior to signitures being collected. The County election office only validates the signitures as being valid registered voters with the city. If the notice to circulate a petition was properly filed and the signiture are valid any inititive is valid and lawfully filed.
Anyone can put an inititve on the ballot. All that is required is signitures, money and volunteers to get it done. Once the referendum is law (ordinance) it is then challengable in court.
As an example we all can look forward to Prop 90. The state and every city will be dealing with a bad inititive. We'll all be paying to fix the problem.
Good points anonymouse 1241PM, any one can get an initiative to be voted on with enough signatures, and if the reason for the initiative is expressed in the right manner it is not hard to get people to sign the petition. People will sign things, even though they do not understand the full details of what they are signing. Thus, I have to agree with Tom Ristau that running a city through referandum and initiatives is not the way to do business, far to many tax dollars will spent on putting initiatives on the ballot especially if it calls for a special election. In Fillmore there simply are not enough tax dollars to do this. If this is the way we want to do business then why not get ride of the city council and just simply go to ballot measures. Oh ya, then nothing will ever get done and far to many tax dollars will be spent. Therefore, would it be safe to assume that this is the reason for elections, so the citizens can put into office the person they think will best represent themselves. Although I do have a lot of concerns about the electoral college process. I disagree that a president can win with enough electoral college votes, even their oponent wins the majority vote. A flaw in the system in my opinion.
maybe patti walker and gayle should seek representaion in a town that truely seeks NOT to progress?
Solution for the City of Fillmore
Let's change the faces on the City Council.
Then the Citizens of Fillmore will have Proper Representation.
Remember...
Dressler said Tuesday at the Council meeting about the North Fillmore Specific Plan.
"Financially it would not be Beneficial for the DEVELOPERS!!!"
The present Council Members have made decisions only for the Developers.
They do not listen or spend any time with their Electorates.
Patti & Gayle, You have my Vote!!!!
Anonymous #23
Anon 1132PM I agree with you, one would think that politicians would have learned a lesson from Arnold and his special election that everyone including myself were very angry with. He spent what 60 million of our dollars to hold a special election under the assumption that the voters would vote his way to prove a point to the state legislature. When it came down to it, he lost due to the misuse of tax dollars for his own agenda.
Word for the day:
(Pronunciation Key)bliv·it Listen: [ blvt ]
n. Slang
Something annoying or pointless.
Something difficult or impossible to name.
Example:
1. Filllmoreblog
2. clairk or patti - whichever name she is uing at the moment
3. gracy
4. dump ken
Have a nice day, Opus 'n bill
Anonymous 4:05PM
Ms Uber..
You forgot the Word you are trying to define.
Is it that necessary to be so "denigrating".
Im not Patti or Gayle. Thats right, Chris Egedi is forcing rumors that we the Kennedy's dont exist , he is wrong.. Whatever! HE (CHRIS) needs to wake up and smell the roses.
ANON OR OPUS, please grow up and start focusing on issues . Just because we have our own views doesnt make us bad people.
ClaireK first Chris is women, second, please do not call the kettle black, you are the number 1 worst offender when it comes to smut, slander, disseat, lack of focus on the issues, etc…. Please do not insult everyone’s intelligence by now trying to turn your tide and finally trying to focus on the issues. With the word of the day, to nothing but wildly imaginative statements about the other candidates, you are definitely not the one to making the statement you did, and while you all may feel this way about me, at least I present facts, an alternative perspective, and am willing to discuss the issues. The problem is that Grace and ClaireK have made personal attacks on everyone that disagrees with them.
Anon
That is so untrue, i have been reading some of these remarks.
YOU are the one. You are very nasty to anyone who write here on the Blog.
Why don't you leave us alone.
that way we can talk respectively to all.
come on folks the election is days away.
lets ask Gayle and Patti some Good questions
person at 4:15
clarek has the right to her opinnion, so does gracy.
it seems your the person attacking others here.
why don't you get a life
only becuase of their attacks to the other persons that have expressed at least an intellegent thought I have not attacked. And I was attacked first , thus have the right to defend myself. Additionally, every time I have been attacked I have asked that they stop and try to refocus to the issues, and as of yet have not seen this. So please do not tell me that I am the one causing the problem, it started with ClaireK and Grace.
Here is a question, why should we vote for you. even if elected, you are probably going to be only 1 of 5 on the council and with the start you have and the contraversy that surrounds you, how are you going to get past this and actually get something accomplished and passed by the council? If both of you are elected this question holds the same, but it might be easier to get you agenda accomplished. Is there to much contraversy to be undone, in order to get the city back on track?
I see my name being used on this blog. I have never written to this or any other blog before and do not know who Annon 4:o5 is. I is not me. I think whoever told me that I needed to look at this blog because I was being trashed and even accused of writing awful things needs to get a life. I truely do not know why anyone would spend so much time and be so hateful. By the way all my info on Patti came from Richard Francis's own records and an e-mail sent to The City's Finance director. They are legitimate and should be considered by all who vote. They might not sway you one way or another but it was information I honestly believed needed to be out in the open. Patti consulting for Richard Francis and other groups who seem to have a penchant for suing the City looks like a conflict of interest if she is being paid by them as a legal consultant. The same thing would have been said about me if I had gone to work for Griffin Industries right after getting off of the Planning Commission. I just doesn't look or smell right. I know both Claire and Gracy are going to say that I am an awful person and they have every right to their opinion. But I have not made any false accusations and Chris Egedi was kind enough to write the article giving everyone a chance to find out the truth. Patti asked for the cooberation(sic) be put in the paper. So Chris printed it for me. I also sent it to the Gazzette and the Star. Neither of them chose to print it. My question is why? They are legitimate documents. Patti has expained her actions and it is up to the residents of Fillmore to make the decision on whether they want her to represent them or not.
Hmm feelings are hurt??
I wonder how Patti feels???
Uber
You mentioned people should know.
Well how about Villegas and Conaway both employeed by SCE and for the last two years with Smedley's vote passing all this contstruction we see around town. Plus the NFSP, and that all goes to sce.
isn't that a grave conflict of interest. garuantee Villegas a good retirement and Conaway a job.
Conaway is in the sales department.
sce is putting lines in the Heritage Valley tracts and would have put new lines in north fillmore.
i say a major conflict of interest.
Patti is a paralegal, she has made that very clear.
where have you been?
hiding behind anonyomous??
All Anonymous writers. What are you afraid of? I put my name out there like Gracy and Claire and I am willing to take the slings and arrows that that will bring. It is easy to accuse someone of writing comments in the anon. title when that someone has no way to prove you wrong. I have always put my name on my opinions.
We all need to hope that a new referendum does not pass with less than 984 homes, especially if Prop 90 passes. Because the City will have to pay Huge judgements to those people that have the value of their land devalued. Also if 90 passes it will be the end of SOAR because when it comes up for renewal there is no governement that will take on the liability.
flyonthewall: First, please read a previous post discussing the difference between a Referendum and an Initiative.
Second, be aware that the zoning for the land in North Fillmore was Industrial/Low Resiential until the City gave entitlements to Suncal(prematurely)with the Tract Map.
So, the issue is the value of land at Industrial zoning or RL.
Prop 90 threats should encourage cities to keep their original General Plan zoning rather than letting developers buy cheap land, then coerce the city council into rezoning so they can reap these windfalls.
SunCal has not had their land devalued. In fact, with the City's actions, they have had their land greatly inflated at our expense.
flyonthewall: First, please read a previous post discussing the difference between a Referendum and an Initiative.
Second, be aware that the zoning for the land in North Fillmore was Industrial/Low Resiential until the City gave entitlements to Suncal(prematurely)with the Tract Map.
So, the issue is the value of land at Industrial zoning or RL.
Prop 90 threats should encourage cities to keep their original General Plan zoning rather than letting developers buy cheap land, then coerce the city council into rezoning so they can reap these windfalls.
SunCal has not had their land devalued. In fact, with the City's actions, they have had their land greatly inflated at our expense.
To all who care.
The CURB allows for at least 20 acres a year to be annexed into the city limits for affordable housing. So far the city has not done so.
Secondly, the General Plan Land Use was for the acreage in North Fillmore to be low-density. It did not convert to 894 units until there was a Master Plan, which today does not exist.
Cecila - and I am still waiting. You have been making these same slanderous comments since April 2003. Are records from 2005 all you have?
Huh good stuff, Cecelia good for you for standing up to your beliefs, I Patti, Gayle prove it, that is all I am asking prove it, prove your numbers, prove your RL levels do not equal a maximum of 894, From everything I have read, which I assume is what you have read it states pretty clearly a maximum of 894. So, prove it and make a believer!!!!!! :O)
Anonymous 6:04 PM:
That's a good question.
Are you saying that the other council members would be against me on every action before the council?
If there are issues before the council and there is no opportunity for reasonable debate and dialog, there is something wrong here.
I think I'm a pretty reasonable and intelligent person. As are Patti and the other council members. I'm not too hard to get along with. We are all supposed to be professionals and my expectation is that whatever happens in this election, that the council will behave as such to get the city on track.
Gayle were you here when Patti went through her whole thing, the tension was thick enough to cut with your finger in the council chambers most nights. Look at Cicilia, she has a lot of problems compared to the Everisto days, Steve, Ken, Ray and Ernie listen to her to a point and then shut her down, they are open minded enough that when she does have a good point they incorporate it, but as when Patti was last on the council there is a lot of tension. Thus, they are human beings, thus, what are you going to do if elected to reverse this tension in order to get any of your agenda accomplished?
Cecelia Uber-
Your smut peddling , slanderous comments have caused nothing but turmoil for the residents of our town. It sure took you long enough to respond to patti's rebuttal. I did however learn alot of pertinent facts about yourself and your character. Infact you seem to be very diligent on making false statements about others. Therefore, my husband and I have not met with or spoke too neither Patti Walker and or Gayle Washburn. We are merely supporters who feel strongly in change and are strongly against CORRUPTION AND PEOPLE WHO CATER TO IT. I trust this clarifys this issue for you.
Thomas and Claire Kennedy
anonymous 9:32: No I was not here when Patti was on the council. And, I have observed the other council members and staff.
I would say that there is a problem there. But, it's not with Cecilia. Although I don't agree with her all the time, she has made some very good points and asked astute questions. I don't see her treating other council members with disrespect. She is a professional
Again, I would state that my expectations are that council members behave in a professional manner.
Yes, people are human beings but conflict exists in all areas of politics, work, social and family interaction. You have to find a way to work together.
They have conflict mediators that can come in and teach people how to get along if need be.
clairek 3:07 PM:
Please refrain from name calling and inflammatory language.
Cecilia U is welcome to participate.
ClaieK it is interesting that you wold say this, it looks as though the kettle is being called black, just like a Kennedy,
Lee and Mary Oswald
ClaireK: Thank you for your vote of confidence. I now know I made my point because you denounced it. God bless you and yours for all you do for us.
Oh Cecelia, go cry on roger dodger campbells shoulder. We all know your sad ,pathetic story. Your nothing but a gossiping prairie dog.
Here , be useful and join shirley girl spitler at the town beauty salon so you can gossip like the old hags your both are. GET a life !
You surprised me Cecilia.
I had always respected you as a good person.
One of a soft spoken woman with empathy and sensitivity.
I understand you wanting people to know certain information.
But the way you did it.
You put it in the hands of the Friends Of Fillmore.
Everyone knows how this PAC works.
You might as well have put it in the mouths of a PAC of Wolves.
In all, it was done in bad taste.
Now where is the important info you have been talking about?
That e-mail, please, that is a correspondence and Patti was not on the Council.
Roger Campbell admitted the City Lost and was ordered to make changes on the General Plan.
Ordered to make changes, well 3 Councilmen at least voted and past a motion that must have been illegitimate.
Why would there be an order?
Plans were past with the knowledge that the Law was being broken.
That does not sound as if those actions were for the best of the City of Fillmore.
I will close with saying.
I have had the privilege to work with Patti.
I find her to be knowledgeable, helpful, honest and a delight to work with.
All of the opposite of which I have been reading.
I am fortunate to be able to look past hatred.
anonymous 12:41: You said...
"courts do not review referendums or petitions prior to signitures being collected"
Yes, they do. They have to review whether they are legislatively feasible.
Here is a quote from a case cited in the Ojai initiative.
"Thus, for example, election officials have been ordered not to place initiative and referendum proposals on the ballot on the grounds that the electorage did not have the power to enact them since they were not legislative in character"
Post a Comment
Links to this post:
Create a Link
<< Home